Transcript of the lamb marketing masterclass part 2: Know your customer
Alice Ritchie:
Welcome to part two of the Lamb Marketing Masterclass tonight's session is Know Your Customer where we'll see a little bit behind the scenes of the meat processing world, and really get to understand what our customers really want in the sheep production. Tonight's presenter Edwina Toohey, will share with us her wealth of knowledge from working in meat science, and she'll help us to understand what our customers really want. This is part two, we've got another session next week and one the following week where we'll round out knowing your product and what you can do on farm, and then knowing your value chain and how you can best make it work to add value for you and for everyone across, I suppose, your value chain. So tonight we have Edwina Toohey. Edwina is a research leader in value chains for the new South Wales DPI based in Dubbo. Edwina has experience in both cattle, sheep, and goat research, and has authored 55 scientific papers and reports. Edwina was the key researcher in the validation and optimization of new generation electrical technologies across Australia, that is a tongue twister, but this work extended to the goat industry.
Alice Ritchie:
She's also undertaken research on methods to alleviate dehydration in sheep under lairage conditions and completed her master's degree through UNE working on the smart sheep, SmartStretch technology in basic sheepmeat. Edwina now manages a diverse team striving to make consumer needs through the value chain and increase profitability of the red meat sector and above all for us tonight, Edwina has some really good contacts and networks through the meat processing industry, so we really can hear exactly what's going on behind the scenes. So Edwina, I might pass it over to you. Actually, no. Hold on. I have a poll which Edwina suggested that we might want to do, which I will just put up. So this poll is... Open it now. We're just trying to set the scene for Edwina about the participants here tonight, working out who have been behind the scenes of the processing plant. So if you've been behind the scene, do you have a relationship with a process that will multiple processes? Is that something that you might want to do or not interested? And do you receive carcase feedback if you do supply direct? So these questions, really interesting questions that I think will help Edwina to understand our audience tonight. I'll just leave it out for a couple of minutes, let people go through it, should just be popping up on your screen.
Alice Ritchie:
And then I'll share the results once they're done as well, because I think it's pretty interesting to see a good mix. So just [inaudible 00:03:09] few seconds then I'll start closing it. It does take some time to close so don't stress, you don't have to rush through. I'll give you 20 seconds to finish up. It's just to help set the scene, know where our group is tonight, then help Edwina set the level, make sure that we're not talking too much jargon. Okay. I'll just show these results up. So as you can see, a lot of people have been through the back end of the processing plant so it's not too unknown, hopefully. We do have a few who haven't. Nice to see that we've got a really good mix of people with or without a relationship with a processor and a lot of people received feedback, but sometimes they don't deliver the [inaudible 00:04:15] relevant. So Edwina, hopefully that helps set the scene for you. [crosstalk 00:04:20] I'll make you the presenter, you can take over and tell us your story.
Edwina Toohey:
Thanks so much, Alice, and can you hear me okay now?
Alice Ritchie:
Certainly can [crosstalk 00:04:34].
Edwina Toohey:
Thank you. Thanks guys for taking that little poll. It's just always interesting to understand, and it's always a tricky situation when you're doing a webinar. I can't see any of you so it feels really strange. I'm sure someone will give me a nudge along if the attendance is dropping off. So thanks very much for the lovely introduction Alice and having me on tonight. I'm pretty stoked to be a part of this series and for me I guess I'm just hoping that I can give you a bit more of a broad background into some of the insights that I have been able to gain, I guess in my time with [inaudible 00:05:09] processing sector and hopefully can share a few insights. So thanks for kicking off on the poll. I know that last week there was some really great insights that for those that were able to attend last week or listened to the recording, there's some great points made around having a team around you and I guess that's where that question came.
Edwina Toohey:
You yourself may not have a good relationship or any relationship with the processor but having that team around you, whether it's your agent or your neighbor who seems to be in the loop, it's really important to sort of position yourself. So, I believe having that knowledge of what your processor is trying to do and who they plan to supply. So whether they're a domestic processor or an export processor, these things will be helpful. And I hope it really becomes clear in my presentation too, that really for the whole sheep industry to become profitable we need to work together to strive that we actually meet those consumer demands and team Holly pointed out last week, we want to strive to increase not only our market share, but also increase the value of our industry. So some of the things I cover tonight are certainly, especially in terms of the technology space, are certainly being engineered around improving that value of our product and enhancing it.
Edwina Toohey:
So I know our team last week also did do a great job of covering off on some of the markets that are around. So just to give you a bit of an overview of the importance of them, I thought I'd just touch base and really want you to share that this domestic market is really quite valuable to us despite often lamb being one of the highest prices for us to consume. It's actually a really valuable market for us domestically. We hold 13% of the market share for fresh meat sales and we actually eat a lot of lamb per capita. So we really as an industry, we want to keep aiming to move to continually strive to grow this through the innovations I'm going to discuss.
Edwina Toohey:
And I'm simply showing these export, which I think team shared similar slides last week, but these export market graphs, I would just want to highlight, obviously there's a huge diversity in the markets that we use that we supply. So for example, the products required to supply the middle East will be very different to consumers. They are chasing say the US or EU market. So we've got products that might have 16 kilo carcasses versus 32 kilos carcasses. So I guess from an export or process point of view, it really doesn't matter what you produce. They can end up be able to find a market for it as long as they're healthy and no defects. Processors are the ones that I guess truly understand what the end customer wants and needs are because they're dealing with them all the time. And this is what we need to decide as producers is how best to supply with what we have on hand. Now it's really obviously a dynamic based market, so dynamic and changing all the time.
Edwina Toohey:
And I think one of the things is that consume is a really pushing for more evidence around what they're consuming and it's, I guess another point about why it's important that we work together with the processors because as producers we can underestimate the importance of providing accurate information to the processes. So things like your NVD are really important that we fill them out and give them accurate because consumers are becoming more demanding over that information. So I've got this fired up around what is an objective online measure. I'm going to talk a little bit about this. I have to admit this is where my passion lies. So if we define what an objective online measure is, it's technology really designed to capture carcase, yield and/or meat quality traits that a production feed either on the Q4 or in the chiller. This has certainly been a growing I guess target for industry.
Edwina Toohey:
But back in 2015, after doing a bit of work in the technology space, I decided to actually ask processors what the value of objective measurement technology was to them. And I guess the thoughts behind this is largely different because the fact that we had been developing technology over the years, both in Australia and internationally, but historically there'll be poorly adopted by the processors. I wanted to get some buy-in from the processors to understand what technology was going to solve the problems that they were facing in their business on a daily basis and I guess to identify what it might also then mean for the producers as well. So there's a couple of ways I hear about when we start talking about objective carcase measurement technology, and I guess in terms of the value based marketing. And some can deem it that processors, they might think it's just another way for them to discount them but I guess I try to look at it on the flip side, in that it's actually an opportunity for us to make that continuous improvement and if we're working together as a team for the industry that continuous improvements about understanding better what we produce as producers and being able to make improvements, whether it's genetic improvements or it's modifying which markets we're actually targeting, or whether it's understanding what's going on with their nutrition.
Edwina Toohey:
So I think there's some really important factors that we need to take into consideration and I think turning it's real growth industry and turning what used to be subjective measurements into objective ones so we can better actually identify what we're producing. And then make those better on farm decisions as previously mentioned. So to get these understanding from the processes in work that was funded by AMPC and MLA, I've used it in 65 processors across Australia and ask them a series of questions. I tried to capture the full dynamics of the processors so not just the big guys. I wanted to hear from the small and medium, large enterprises as well. So, the domestic, the export, the single spaces, multi-species plants, whatever they were, I wanted to get their views on what they would deem appropriate for the industry. And so some of the results I will present will actually include some views of beef and goat processors. As you can see I actually surveyed 11 down in Victoria. So in terms of lamb processors when I asked processors, I got them to rank what carcase quality and yield traits that they saw is important to their business to be able to objectively assess and imagining that there was a high degree of back seat in these measurements. And not surprisingly factors like tenderness, age, pH and make color all important traits followed by yield and GR.
Edwina Toohey:
So GR is that fat depth at the 12th, 13th rib about 110 mm around from the middle of the carcase. So, age has always been a big factor in the price. So obviously the lip lamb definition is slightly changed now, but is still is that drop off in price. And so for processors, they wanted something that can objectively determine their age, as opposed to them being the one saying, "Actually now it's a [inaudible 00:12:59] or now it's actually moved into the healing product." So color is obviously is one of those ones that we know affects consumers at the mark when they're purchasing at the point of purchasing. And then the tenderness and pH we know as meat scientists in the meat processing industry, we know pH has a strong relationship with tenderness so there's a drive for industry to understand that. And obviously tenderness we know is what affects the consumers at the end. So these results were really important to understand and try and understand how we were going to make the consumer demand from the processing sector.
Edwina Toohey:
So I also asked some questions around how they'd actually use this information and some interesting results came. So a lot of them actually said they would use it to make the real time decisions on market suitability. A lot said that they would actually market their product differently. And a fair chunk of them would want to provide feedback to suppliers. There was also a level of interest in deriving payment systems with suppliers, and then there's a category of other and in that, I guess it was around keeping a database of all the suppliers around the ones that were performing well and using that information for repurchase in the future. And the other results that were quite interesting is that three quarters of the process as expected, whatever technology we came up with, it had to have an accuracy rate of greater than 90%. And so I guess they wanted to be able to ensure that their suppliers were getting accurate information back. A large proportion wanted greater than 90% accuracy, which is a long way from where we are now when we do a lot of things subjectively.
Edwina Toohey:
And importantly, another outcome was that most could actually see the value of objective carcase measurement technology in the future. So it tells me that they're on board with moving in this direction. So moving forward ALMTech was developed. Now ALMTech is the advanced laptop measurement technologies projects. It's a federally funded R&D for profit project. And as you can see from this slide, there's a number of key partners that are all making this happen. These projects led by professor Graham Gardner from Murdoch University and there's a large team of, I guess, industry players, research and development staff from state government, universities, private sector. We were all tasked with bringing in developing and validating technologies for the meat processing sector. So I'm going to touch on some of those technologies now.
Edwina Toohey:
One of the main technologies under development for you has been DEXA. And some of you guys might've heard about this plant in Victoria that having installed this technology. And the reason for DEXA being important is to determine the lean meat yield. And I like these two little graphs here, and I'm going to get my tricky little pointer out to show you. So these two graphs here, I think are really simplistic representation about what it's looking at. So we're trying to define the difference between bone yield, bone muscle, and fat, sorry. So these can show that once we can have the same composition, we can have very different same side dimensions and size, but it can be comprised of very different composition of 40 tissues fat and meat. The relative amount of these tissues varies between obviously the individual carcase and generally the smallest is the bone, maybe it's generally the largest component. So we can combine these seem to nation with carcase weight and actually determine the amount of sellable meat you got in the carcase and along with other factors, determine the eating quality and perhaps providence, which all equate to the dollar values.
Edwina Toohey:
And I actually think the slide shows quite nicely what increasingly meat yield remains. So you can see here, we've got an example of two carcase weights at 21 kilos. One's actually a low yielding one and one's a high yielding one. So what you can see is actually when we get down to the dollar value here, it's very different in price. And additionally, I think things to note is having carcasses that are excessively fat, if it costs the... We've got some studies that show that it costs the processor 10% more to bone out a carcase said it's a fat score of four, as opposed to one a fat score of one, two, three. And when the carcase has moved to a fat score of five, it costs the processor or an extra 21, sorry, it takes them an extra 20% longer compared to a fat score of one, two or three. So the important take home messages for producer here is that not only does it cost the processor money to do this, but it's going to cost you and no doubt Elke Hocking will touch on this next week in more detail. But when an animal is laying down fat where she's losing production efficiency and average meat industry's under increasing pressure to produce a sustainable product.
Edwina Toohey:
And laying down fat is not a good way of producing a sustainable product. So we need to look at if there's any genetic improvements we can make. [inaudible 00:18:47] like mentioned last week, this really cements the importance of seeking the feedback from consignments and turning this information that you can use on farm to better meet your market specifications by either improving genetics, nutrition, animal health. You might change and turn off earlier or change your markets that you're targeting. The other aspects of the ALMTech projects really focusing on is obviously eating quality and from the processor survey work I did, that was also really important. So we really thought we'd start with an obvious place of intramuscular fat. So each of us get a [inaudible 00:19:31] is what you can see in this picture here. I'm just trying to get my little fuzzy thing. This is what we're actually aiming to measure. And we're investigating a number of different technologies to evaluate these in real time. Now this is what we know consumers will benefit from. We hope to perhaps incorporate these results into say an MSA model and extract greater value for these and then therefore producers to be rewarded.
Edwina Toohey:
However, if we want to manage expectations, we knew that the MSA beef model and for any of you that are also beef producers you'll know that it actually took around 20 years for the MSA beef model to actually really establish those markets and fully reach the full potential of extracting the value from selling that product. So I think we should hope with the sheep sector that it wouldn't take as long because we've got precedents then. We've also been looking at, I guess, the more blue sky type stuff as well. So things that we can't necessarily see the muscle, and we know that there's factors relating. This is a work that we've been doing at DPI in relation with our partners at Charles Darwin University and MLA funded the proof of concept. And these studies actually is linking all the factors like animal age and other factors that influence meat toughness and having a look at that. So intermuscular fat is a really good... It tells a really big part of the story and the other part of the stories, I guess, what the connective tissue is doing. And so that links to the consumer sensation of tenderness. There's plenty going on in this space.
Edwina Toohey:
And then in addition to that, we'll have been looking at objective offal assessment. So it's really important to identify, I guess, that real... And Chris [Rebeck 00:21:32], sorry, from MLA has been heading up the program tree within ALMTech. And AMPC has also been investing in this area. So we know that animal diseases and defects mostly affects meat offal, meat and offal and sometimes the entire carcass, which results in it being condemned. MLA research has indicated that the meat and offal condemned cost the small stock sector about $110 million each year. And that's only through 10 common conditions found during processing. So again, it's another example where if we work closely with the processing sector, and obviously we're developing these technologies to objectively assess it, but maintaining those health benefits, there's a bit of a win-win because if we don't know we're producing animals say with a high incidence of liver fluke, we'll keep producing those animals, or we won't choose the management decisions to change that. And then as a result of that, we've got animals that are going to be less productive and then not only that, it's going to cost us more when we process them because that offal, that's no longer valuable product.
Edwina Toohey:
So in this space, MLA has partnered also with a global airline detection company. So we're taking technologies from other fields and we're bringing them and applying them to the meat processing sector. So there's that conversion of making the robustness to be able to be rolled out to the meat processing sector and that alone is proving to be really fruitful in terms of being able to increase the rapid adoption. We're not actually starting from scratch here. We've got a well-established company that has a good business portfolio and being able to get adopted. So I guess it brings me to the carcase feedback. And I know we asked at the poll at the beginning and I'd have to refresh my memory on what the results were, but do we actually currently seek carcase feedback and what are you looking for and what would you like to see in the carcase feedback with some questions that I did have. It's a really tricky scenario doing a webinar and you can't get any feedback on this, but I think [inaudible 00:23:56] getting that carcase feedback enables us to make better management decisions and then provide the processor with more than what they're wanting.
Edwina Toohey:
So it's a really important thing. And I guess really quickly, I just had a couple of tight time messages and that was that it really is a partnership. I think the profitability of the Australian sheep industry is a partnership that we have with our processors. So if we can work alongside in it and it doesn't matter if you're not supplying your processors direct. And I know that there were some people that might sell their livestock through the sale yards. It's just knowing what you're targeting as a producer. I think that's important. So I mentioned in the early slides, it doesn't really matter what you're producing, we'll find a market for it because Australia is in a fortunate position that we do supply such a diverse range of products to the world. Our product is sought after by the world for its flavor, for its quality assurance. And these are the key things that I think we need to keep pushing and striving forward for as an industry. So I very quickly went through slides around the technology development and the reason why we are investing so much time and money into that technology development is that I think it's what's going to keep Australia in front of our competitors.
Edwina Toohey:
It's going to keep our consumers more in tune with what they're getting and assuring and giving processors the tools to ensure that they're targeting the right consumer. So not everything has to be super tender. It's not going to be super tender. We can send it to the wet markets where it's going to get boiled and the consumer is going to look for that more and take structural integrity for it to stay together. So there's a market for everything, it's just ensuring that we align up what we want and ensuring that if we're not going to finish our product, we all make marketing decisions. You might want to keep more mouth aiding and have a higher breeding and reproduction program and turn off your lambs earlier and let someone else finish them because that's what suits your business model. So I guess that leads to the next point is that it's really not a one size fits all. I think because of the diversity in our markets, we're not just supplying Australian consumers, we're supplying the world. So there's a lot of diversity in what we do. I think he might've got that there's a lot of exciting technology and I guess maybe I'd be happy to field a few more on that technology development.
Edwina Toohey:
And the other key take home point is information usage. We can all get a bit overwhelmed with some of the information that we get or struggle with understanding about where the best place to get that information. And I know the team at Agriculture Victoria are really proactive in helping produce a group's work through that. I think it's a really beneficial thing to truly understand what we're producing in order to make great on farm management decisions and diversify. So I really flew through that guys. So it leaves lots of question time, which I think is probably better suited to me.
Alice Ritchie:
That's just about because we've got a few questions coming through now Edwina.
Edwina Toohey:
Good.
Alice Ritchie:
You'll be right. We've got a couple of curly ones. Here's one from Christine. Getting collaboration with processors is challenging. So there is a cost of processes in using objective measures in particular when they're used to paying on weight and fat. What would you recommend when engaging with processors, I suppose, from adopting objective carcase measurement point of view, what some of the messages-
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah. So look, the processors are probably in a tricky spot because we don't really have a huge amount of commercial staff, especially in the quality in lamb space at the moment. So I see the processors and I said before coming on today, I got a bit nervous getting a processor perspective, went on got a research background, but I spoke to a couple and again, I like to get a cross section of processors so I spoke to a couple of processors and I think it's the most exciting it's been. So I remember when I first started hearing about Viascan, which is a really exciting technology and it was going to change the world, especially in the beef industry, because they were doing quality measurements of it. And it never really went forward. So it is tricky when we start talking, I guess, around the value based marketing and everything like that. I think every process is going to want to set aside themselves differently and market themselves differently but I think in terms of building that relationship with the processor, and it doesn't have to be the one and only processor, you might have multiple relationships with them, but it's around really identifying where you might think you're going to get the best bang for your buck for what you're able to produce.
Edwina Toohey:
So supplying your local domestic average farm might just not be what you're able to do. I mean or just you might vary it, but depending on what the seasons like, so I'm not sure I've actually answered her question very well.
Alice Ritchie:
No, I suppose in your experience with... I suppose this is where it comes back to your survey and looking at processors responses to new technologies and how willing they are to adopt them. Are there any particular trends around things that they might find more valuable or things that they think have got really strong relevance now, or things that they might be scared of because it's going to change the way they they operate, perhaps?
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah, that's a really [crosstalk 00:30:05]. Yeah. No, look, that's a really good question. So, I was probably surprised because like I said, I serve at a cross section. So a lot of the big buyers they're super keen for it because it's going to make their life a bit easier, but even other processors I think it's around setting ourselves apart from the rest of the world. And we are one of the biggest supplies of lamb and mutton to the world. So I think there is always going to be barriers to adoption and that was partly what, I mean, I didn't go into those specifics, but that was partly what I was trying to identify, what the barriers to adoption were previously to some of the technologies that we have developed over time. And in some cases like realistically I could openly say, there's a couple of technologies that were developed that were great but actually had a really poor business model. We had the [inaudible 00:31:02] shape pro, which is an objective measurement of GR fat. But now with the great technology it started to struggle to keep up with chain speed. So I think it worked to change speed about nine or 10 a minute. Now is anything that I tag, I wanted to understand where chain speeds are at now at the shape processing sector. So, probably the fastest is around 14 a minute.
Edwina Toohey:
So we want to think about what's going to happen in the future. They might want to keep increasing that speed because when I first started our 10 a minute was well and truly the fastest and everything else was at about six a minutes. So, chain speeds are certainly increasing because that improves productivity. And that sheep probe, it was manufactured by one person. There was no one to take on it. Trends, I guess, changed. I think when we start thinking about the animal health data and animal health feedback, I think we've come a long way. [inaudible 00:32:07] adoption previously and historically hasn't been great and I don't think this is this stuff isn't going to happen overnight. We know we're in a really early development stage of some of these technologies, others are further progressed but it does take time. And then there's the early adopters that are going to have the troubleshooting phase of ironing out all the bugs and then there'll be the late adopters that can swing in and use the benefits of the technology. So, I was fortunate my first area of work, where I worked in electrical stimulation technology.
Edwina Toohey:
So I mean, that technology was really designed for the sheep industry to just reduce the variation of tenderness. So it was really designed to take out the really tough ones that might be there. So, I mean, it has a limitation. We don't have enough glycogen in the muscles, there's only so much electrical stimulation can do for an animal, but it was a really great technology that gave some quality assurances and being able to get products onto the shelves faster. So we know if we age our products, we can get an excellent level of tenderness, but not everyone has the time and it's obviously not efficient to each products. So yes, I'm not probably answering the question really clear because it is a tricky one.
Alice Ritchie:
It is a curly one, I did say it was a curly one.
Edwina Toohey:
But in general, I guess the consensus, which was a surprising outcome for me, the consensus was, is that people are more open to it and I think they're open to using the information, not only for feedback to producers, but also internally as well.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah. I suppose linked to some of what you're saying around competition internationally and the fact that we produce so much here, countries like Canada and China are increasing their production. When I tried to produce a huge amount of lamb they just don't export it. How [inaudible 00:34:05] stay ahead of them? How do we keep up? Is this technology the key?
Edwina Toohey:
Well, I think it is in terms of maintaining quality supply. I mean, we're obviously just coming out of and especially where I'm from we've just come out of a pretty bad drought for the last few years. So we're all about restocking at the moment and support and actually building a supply numbers. So I think it's about increasing the value of the products that we're actually doing and I think by being able to differentiate and market our products, so we've seen it in the beef industry where they can differentiate on quality quite easily now. And so I think we're really paving the way in terms of lamb to be able to differentiate on quality. I mean, traditionally we've been paid on fat and weight and that is it, whereas if we can differentiate and start targeting premium markets. So in terms of our market share, I think the other advantage we've got is that population growth keeps occurring. And also COVID may throw a spanner in the works and I haven't looked at recent data, but the middle class of Asia is wanting better quality products. So there's those opportunities both for the beef and sheep industry.
Alice Ritchie:
Absolutely. Doing it slightly I suppose you can talk on your own experience on farm, what can be done differently based on carcase feedback and quality aspects? What do you think? I need to read this question in full because it's quite a good one. In terms of carcase feedback, we want info from the processor about quality aspects that can be addressed by [inaudible 00:35:44] through change practices on farms. So what could be done differently on farm to make the most improvement in quality?
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah. I mean, it depends on the feedback that you're getting, but if it's around, and again it's a bit of a chicken and egg, we're talking really excited with you about new technologies that we don't technically have been able to give quality feedback. So it is a bit of a challenge, but obviously genetics is a big thing. So we need to look out on farm genetics. And there's a few parts to that question so what else can we do? And obviously basic things around ensuring that you've got a rising plan of nutrition leading into slaughter, like really casings that you set your animals upright that they are going to eat well, but in terms of actually tapping in and reaping those benefits as a producer right now, I mean, you solely are being predominantly paid on weight and fat. So your current situation is quite hard, but I think interpreting that data when you get it back, I think is going to be a challenge. And I know Elke Hocking we'll talk a little bit, I think next week about this.
Alice Ritchie:
I was going to say that Elke in our next week session is Know Your Product. And this is where we'll really flesh out some of these concepts around on farm management practices.
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah.
Alice Ritchie:
And there is a second part to this. If there are changes that can be done and then you can identify what those ones you could do differently will have the biggest improvement. Could that then be potentially costed out and the producer or producer group work with a processor to monitor those quality responses. And could you show mutual benefit to the processor saying, if you give me this feedback where you can provide better quality stuff.
Edwina Toohey:
A hundred percent. And I think that is exactly why I kept talking all along about the partnership because you guys, producers, we can improve ourselves if we want anything. If you don't know something's not right, you can't improve it. So a hundred percent working directly with processes. I know there's some very keen processors in Victoria that want to work with the producer groups and have those consistent supplies to ensure because that way they can forward planning go, "Yes, I know that Alice is going to give me quality lamb this year. I know she's going to turn off a thousand and I know where I want to send them." It is actually about them being able to... And again, it's a bit of a circle really. A happy consumer means that they're willing to pay the price, which means that processors are getting the price, which means that they'll reward and pay. They will. It doesn't seem like they do but they will actually pay the price for the product if they know it's going to deliver. And I guess that probably leads to some of the other work that we've been doing too, which I should mention in this forum is that I've got a researcher at DPI, Dr. Gordon [Rashovi 00:38:52] and he's been working on actually looking at live sheep assessments. So having an objective wise body condition score.
Edwina Toohey:
Now Gordon's got a reproduction background and he's working on that technology for different reasons and I'm keen to strive to use it for other areas as well but we are working to give an arm producers more on farm with information before you actually send them to [inaudible 00:39:20] because we have a set of scales, we can condition score or fat score, but giving us objective measurements and we're working in a cattle industry about if we know our genetics and if we know what nutritional class they're on, we've got a tool to future predict quality traits and I'd like to see. That's an exciting project that we're also working on in the cattle industry, but I'd like to see that transpire for the sheep industry as well. But it has been hard to do any of these stuff when really we don't have any accurate, commercial quality measurements like today that we can do.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah. So that is the big question is when is it likely to start seeing some of these? I know it's only done it for a lot of it, but we're talking in five years, in 20 years in next week or probably [inaudible 00:40:18].
Edwina Toohey:
Looks like in the five-year horizon, I think is definitely tangible. I think the [inaudible 00:40:21] like Graham Gardner and the team, you guys are a part of that as we are, we're tasked with having commercial products at the end of that, that research work. So it's very commercialized focused on some of those technologies. So there's a lot of fingers and a lot of paws trying to see who can crack it because if we can crack, been able to objectively measure intermuscular fat, what's really exciting if we can do it non destructively, that's even more exciting. And from a processor, if we can do it and that came out in the survey work, if we can do it when the carcase is still hot and before they go into the chillers, well that's even more exciting.
Edwina Toohey:
So, the horizon is a bit unsure because it is research but I would hope within five years. And then as I indicated with the beef industry, it took 20 years sometime to establish some solid... I mean, 20 years is a good reflection of how long it took but there was wins along the way and I think the sheep industry, you can certainly do it a little faster because of precedence has been set. But I think that that circle of partnership, having a happy consumer and we're producing the right thing will mean if everything's going well, it means that all of us can be rewarded. And I think that's the approach we've got to take. And so that in a face of feedback and hopefully Elke Hocking also she will be talking, I know we touched base last week, and she will be talking a lot about that next week.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah. Just on something you've just said. Non-destructive measures as opposed to presumably destructive ones. Do you want to just flesh that out? What is the real benefit? Why do we care?
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah. So when we say non-destructive or versus destructive. So destructive means that we might actually have to damage a portion of the carcase or cut a portion of the carcase to take the measurement and obviously we don't want to do that. We don't want to do any of it to get the measurement. I mean, currently the way we do pH measuring is we put a couple of probes in and you might cause a bit of damage to the chop. Not too many people complain about it, but we want it to be rapid and we want it to be non-destructive. And I think it's just technology in the agri space, but also we really are pulling technologies from other industries and it's rapidly moving. So I think it's not unrealistic to achieve that non-destructive tech.
Alice Ritchie:
Yes. Awesome. Going back to genetics, [inaudible 00:43:08] any correlations identified between ASBV and lamb carcase quality in particular, the CFOs and IMS?
Edwina Toohey:
Sorry, but apologies to whoever asked that question. I'm certainly not a geneticist, but I certainly know that they have been working very strongly in that case. And so I think what you're asking is, is there a correlation between tenderness and IMS?
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah. And does it relate to the genetic measures that we have at the moment?
Edwina Toohey:
Yes.
Alice Ritchie:
If you can comment on that.
Edwina Toohey:
Yes. So really broadly speaking, yes it does, but it's definitely not my area of expertise and I can take it on notice and direct it to the right person that'll answer that very articulately.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah. So I suppose linked to that, what on farm measurements, I know you've been talking about the live animal assessment work that you've been doing with sheep, or at least IMS been doing the sheep, is there likely to be lean meat yield IMF objective measurements on farm down the track? I know there's already some things in this space.
Edwina Toohey:
Yes. So, in IMS again, we're easier being in base. So there's been a couple technologies in base. There's a microwave technology which has been developed by the team at Murdoch just solely looking at doing a fat dip on them, as I mentioned. And this is in shape obviously. As I mentioned Gordon Rashovi is doing the objective body condition score technology, but we've delved a little bit more into the cattle space in some of these texts and we'll try and apply. Wool can be a bit of a barrier for some of the things that we've been looking at so we'll try and further do it, definitely the shape space.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah. Still work to be done, I suppose. Do you know anything about skins? Skin value has drop lately, but they used to be significant. What a process is looking for and why?
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah, I think the market, like the skin market essentially didn't go very well. And I think the cost of film mongering, and again, I'm probably stretching my expertise here, but I think the cost of processing the skins, a lot of it gets sent off shore now to do that.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah.
Edwina Toohey:
Which is a bit of a shame but I think the cost... So I don't exactly know what happened to the value of skins. Sorry I can't help you out.
Alice Ritchie:
No, that's okay.
Edwina Toohey:
You can find out from a reliable resource. So if you take down names, I can get back to people.
Alice Ritchie:
So [Katie 00:46:01] just sent a message saying Christmas is coming we need a [inaudible 00:46:05] in every stalking.
Edwina Toohey:
Yes.
Alice Ritchie:
Everyone buy your [inaudible 00:46:13]. Question about feedback and looking at feedback for sheep is very limited compared to beef. Why is that? Will it change? So-
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah. So I guess-
Alice Ritchie:
... individual animals, those sorts of things.
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah. It's a really simple reason why these so far now is that we quarter beef carcasses so we can actually get a bit of an insight as to what's going on. In lamb carcasses we don't get that insight until we put them through a band saw. So that's one of the probably real reasons why we never you don't get that back grading, like we are able to do in beef. But again, like I definitely said it's in the future and I think there's a real opportunity for more quality assurance type programs. Lamb [inaudible 00:47:01] is actually becoming more popular plus economical. Like I remember when I first started working [inaudible 00:47:06] was starting when you did your budget. If you weren't factoring in time it was probably profitable, but if you start factoring in time and everything in the grind and everything else, it wasn't really profitable, but now that's become a profitable. So having those branding and marketing opportunities, but again, in terms of the carcase assessment, it's really been challenging because we can't see inside the carcase and then we don't know what's going on until it splits, but hopefully some of these technologies like we've been working with near-infrared technology, we've been working with ramen hyper spectral technology.
Edwina Toohey:
So there's a lot. And I didn't go into all the detail about the technology because I wasn't sure whether the audience would be super excited about understanding what near-infrared meant and what it was looking at it. But essentially these are texts that hopefully we can apply to the carcasses without having to split them or wait until they split. Some we will, there's some trial technology going on in Victoria, which I think we'll be using a camera over the short line when it's been boned out but it's very trial and it's obviously late in the process for grading, but it is an opportunity for grading to occur and then producers to get that feedback on how they're going. So it's much easier not to crack for the beef [inaudible 00:48:33] carcasses and we can see that it will be what's going on.
Alice Ritchie:
Yes. So at the moment because we don't have these fully commercially available measures.
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah.
Alice Ritchie:
Good questions. The processes they're premium for high tenderness or intramuscular fat carcasses from retailers. And if so, is that information passed on to the producer? And I'm wondering, are we actually at the point where processors can reliably provide, I mean when they're grading cuts, you would be able to see whether or not there is a bit more marbling, but is it actually that built into the marketing onto the consumer yet?
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah, definitely not yet, but I guess that's where I was going with the MSA models and being able to build into those. So it's certainly not there yet because we don't actually grade. We still don't grade on anything other than really weight and fat so marbling doesn't necessarily predominantly, there may be some niche markets that are doing it, but predominantly it doesn't really come into it.
Alice Ritchie:
So, that's something we're hoping down the track [crosstalk 00:49:38] good tool to use to effectiveness.
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah, exactly that. So we can actually start to build MSA models around it. So we've got cut space and we know... So broadly we know that obviously our loins and our tenderloins are going to be better and so they get the higher prices on a cut space, but that's really generic. So we don't differentiate really between cuts only related to the weight. So if you're producing, we make assumptions, if you've only got a 16 kilo carcase lamb with a fat score of one, we're assuming that it probably hasn't had the best life and it's probably not going to go in our high end quality market and it's obviously not going to meet those specifications based on the weight. So it's going to go to our lower value markets. You're going to get paid less for that. And then you do see that in your grids. Although grids can be confusing because if the process is good I market to feel like I noticed the other day for one of the grids was showing that for a 16 kilo mutton carcase, it was $6 20, but if you were producing a 30 kilo mutton carcase it was $4. Overall, obviously over the end of the week you're going to get more money for the heavier one but it was just interesting that they giving that higher value to the smaller carcase. And it's probably solely as they try to meet a specific market.
Alice Ritchie:
Yep. I suppose at the end of the day, it's about trying to find that customer.
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah.
Alice Ritchie:
And moving away from the technology point of view, seeing an emergence of graph said lamb branding and other types of branding, I suppose the supermarket or butcher. Is that just a flash in the pan or is that here to stay?
Edwina Toohey:
No. I think it's definitely here to stay. I mean, we stayed in the beef industry and it's about how we can differentiate our product. And it's no different than using an MSA brand. It's something that we can quantify whether it's producing and providing the information, whether it's grass fed or grain fed. We are actually doing a beef program at the moment looking at grass fed versus granted verification to have an objective measure. So, as a researcher, Bella keeps telling me don't ever start one of these during a drought because it is exceptionally hard to find grass fed beef when we're looking at specific types of grass, like types of pasture as well. So, it's a challenge to get what she was after. But that branding it's around differentiating a product and it's something that producer groups can do together. That's about extracting more value for what you're producing and I think it's either stay out or I don't know, it's a flash in the pan.
Alice Ritchie:
Yep. No, that's good. All right. I've got one final question which actually leads really well into May talking about the rest of this lamb marketing master class and some of the future sessions we've got coming up. If you're a [inaudible 00:52:48] producer or a ram breeder your clients are going to get tired on carcase life. So why should a breeder be focused on chasing IMS [inaudible 00:52:59] when there's no current economic benefits? So the easiest for your suppliers not for your customers?
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah, so that's a really practical way of looking at it. And I mean, if you're getting paid on weight, you're getting paid on weight, but I think if we look at the bigger picture in terms of consumers sought after Australian lamb for a reason. I mean, lamb in general, if we're just talking about lamb, I mean, lamb's a pretty good product. Not often you have a lamb shopping and go, "Geez. That was tough," if, if I'm completely honest, but to answer that question, yes. I mean, you could choose... That could be your business model so those is what you're going to focus on, but I think the future, and obviously for generics to come through, it does take time, I think the future is that there will be a quality trait and it will have values.
Edwina Toohey:
So I think it will be definitely important in the future. So whoever asked the question, it's a really valid point. Why would I change my genetics when I'm getting paid on weight and fat. The current research is rapidly trying to change that. We're not just going to get paid on weight and fat, we're going to get paid on quality attributes, whether it be intermuscular fat or whether it be the ability for the animal to be more tender.
Alice Ritchie:
[inaudible 00:54:18] to throw that into the mix as well.
Edwina Toohey:
Yeah. And then lean meat [inaudible 00:54:23]. The lean meat yield is around also, I guess our industry striving to produce a more production efficient products. So, gain like I use that example about lying down fat, there's no point seeding a shape if they're just going to keep laying down and go from a fat score of three to a fat score five when they're actually putting any muscles. So it's costing you in production and it's also costing the processor as well. So there's not really that point, but as a producer I get why people do it. You particularly kettle as well but I mean, if you're getting paid per kilo, you just put the weight on. So if you've got the feed there and you're not going to use the feed for anything else, that's why people do it. I can understand. I mean I'm guilty of charge to doing that. But if we talking about a sustainable and I think too, not tomorrow, not in the next five years, but it's certainly on the cards we're going to have to work at how we produce more sustainable product.
Alice Ritchie:
Yeah.
Edwina Toohey:
And that will come into it. So knowing when the right timing to turn off, and then if you're turning off product faster, you might be able to change your carrying capacity and really get your bang for your buck out of your lamb.
Alice Ritchie:
Yes, absolutely. No, that's fantastic. Thank you so much, Edwina.
Edwina Toohey:
It's okay.
Alice Ritchie:
I think we've had a mountain of questions, all of which you've answered extremely well. So thank you. Hopefully we were all a little bit more informed around some of the cool new stuff that's happening from a processing perspective and what it will actually mean for producers and people at home.