AgVic Talk Season 9

Speaker 1:

Welcome to AgVic Talk, keeping you up to date with information from Agriculture Victoria.

Drew Radford:

Plan for the unexpected, and then, if you’re unsure, factor in an extra buffer. G’day, I’m Drew Radford, and that’s the perspective of a third-generation apiarist whose family business has been dealing with climate variability for a number of years. Richard Collins joins me in the AgVic Talk studio to talk about how his family had been doing this. Thanks for your time.

Richard Collins:

No worries, mate. Thanks for having me.

Drew Radford:

Richard, you’re a third-generation beekeeper. There's a great story about, is it your grandfather getting into it?

Richard Collins:

Yeah, yeah. My dad and Pop got into it. And the story that I always remember, is dad was riding home from school one day and seen a swarm of bees on a tree limb. And thought, ‘Hey, I'm going to snap this off and take it home’. So in a hessian bag it went, and that pretty much is what started Dad and Pop into the bee industry, I guess. And then he was a self-taught beekeeper and expanded from there.

Drew Radford:

Well, you have expanded because you’re third generation now, but you’ve got a couple of brothers as well. Not all in the game, but all having hives. How many hives between you all?

Richard Collins:

We’re probably sitting on around 3,500 I’d say, give or take.

Drew Radford:

That's a lot of beehives.

Richard Collins:

It is, it’s a fair bit of work. It’s always a full-time job, but you got to do what you love, and as Dad always says is go big or go home.

Drew Radford:

Well, you did go home. Because you’re actually a chef by trade, aren’t you?

Richard Collins:

Yeah, yeah, I am. Which has helped with the packing side of the honey world, I guess, is having a cheffing background and creating new and I guess exciting ways to do something with honey. Like we launched a creamed honey chocolate, and that was the first in Australia and we’ve just done an all-natural honey ice cream, honey honeycomb, a chocolate-coated honey honeycomb, collaborating with local producers in Bendigo. And I’ve just done a vanilla bean creamed honey.

Drew Radford:

So really diversifying what you produce. Just taking one step back, 3,500 hives spread over what sort of area, and how much honey does that many hives produce each year?

Richard Collins:

It all depends on the seasons. Weather, rain, summer, what trees are going to be yielding. It’s very variable of how much honey you'll get. You could get 100 pelotons or you could get 10 pelotons.

Drew Radford:

What’s a peloton?

Richard Collins:

An IBC [intermediate bulk container], so it’s roughly about 1,500 kilos of honey.

Drew Radford:

Wow.

Richard Collins:

Yeah, that’s a lot of honey.

Drew Radford:

Richard, what sort of area are those hives spread over?

Richard Collins:

Pretty much throughout Victoria. Sort of down south to Gippsland and north usually into ... Or we used to go into New South Wales pre-varroa, and then the Mallee area and then throughout Bendigo as well.

Drew Radford:

A moment ago you talked about their output, that it depends upon the season, which is what we want to drill down into further. But firstly, are bees particularly sensitive to weather and climate?

Richard Collins:

Yeah, they are. Weather is everything. It’s farming, same as every other farmer is, we depend on the weather for everything, really.

Drew Radford:

Do they give you signals that there’s changes coming ahead?

Richard Collins:

Yes and no. Usually if you’re trying to work them and they know rain’s coming and we know rain’s coming, they’ll get pretty grumpy and whatnot. But yeah, that’s probably the only signal you get is you get a few more stings because they know that the weather’s going to turn bad.

Drew Radford:

Southeastern Australia, the weather’s quite variable.

Richard Collins:

Yeah.

Drew Radford:

What are some of those variabilities and how have you dealt with them in your business?

Richard Collins:

You check the weather and try and come up with a game plan for the week, but the weather’s always changing. The downpours of rain. We’ve had bees flooded 2 years in a row now, unfortunately, due to extensive rain that wasn’t really forecast to hit.

But yeah, it’s I guess trying to have your game plan set for where you’re going to go and ensuring in summer the bees have got enough water, and you’re up there every week checking on them and giving them a fresh supply of water. Especially in the Mallee district where it’s dry sand and 40-plus degree days.

Drew Radford:

Richard, over your family’s history in the game, has your dad seen differences in terms of the climate?

Richard Collins:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. He talks back 12, 14 years ago when that big drought went through, is that he believes that’s when the trees definitely took a toll. And back in his day you’d go to any sort of nectar flow and you get heaps and heaps of honey, you’d get boxes and boxes. And now we’re chasing our tail to try and get enough to keep the bees happy and occasionally you’ll get a box off to be able to keep yourself happy too.

So the trees just don’t yield or last as long as what they used to in his eyes. And the climate is much more different now too, with the unknown of monstrous downpours, is it was very uncommon back 10, 15 years ago.

Drew Radford:

That’s really interesting. So you’re talking about those monstrous downpours, which a lot of them have been almost around summer, northwesterly patterns.

Richard Collins:

Yeah, yes. Definitely took us off guard last year and the year before. We lost hives both times in floods, but if you're expecting 10 mm then you get 100 mm, which is way off.

Drew Radford:

That adds a lot of variability into your planning, doesn’t it?

Richard Collins:

Yeah, it definitely throws the spanner in the works. That makes you question your backup plan or your plan to begin with, but unfortunately you just can’t control the weather and so you just got to do your best and hope for the best

Drew Radford:

I get the impression you’re always looking for ways to improve your business, and as part of that, you recently completed the Apiary Farm Business Resilience Program. What did you learn from that?

Richard Collins:

Probably the biggest thing we learned was the costings and feasibility of how much it’s going to cost to move that load of bees. And I guess what the return on the investment is going to be of moving the bees is usually you just get up and go and do it and not really think about the consequences or how much it's going to cost you, it's just something that has to be done.

But that was more of an eye-opener of working out if we move them from here to here, what’s the chance that the trees are going to yield and how much is it going to cost us? What’s the benefit going to be? Which is all still variable, given that they’re livestock, but knowing your numbers a lot more than what we did has probably been key to expanding.

Drew Radford:

It’s really interesting for you to say that because you’ve got so many hives in the family business and you’ve got even a dedicated truck. I mean, we’re not talking a small truck. This is a pantech that you’ve got for moving things around.

Richard Collins:

Yeah, yeah, we just actually got a new hive hauler truck, being a curtain slider, so hopefully a bit more safety while transporting bees. And we can do pit stops and whatnot along the way so bees can’t actually escape the truck when we’re moving them now, which is I think going to be the future moving forward.

Drew Radford:

Totally understandable. But I guess what I’m getting at is you’re very focused on the costs of running your business, and yet you’ve gone and done a course like this and you’ve actually gone, ‘Yeah, there’s more we can think about’.

Richard Collins:

Yeah. Well, being a chef by trade, I’ve got a fair idea of understanding costs, but they opened it up to a lot more costings that you weren’t really considering or thinking about, I think. And putting it all into the equation rather than just a few things.

Drew Radford:

So how have you implemented this in regards to your business?

Richard Collins:

So that’s probably key as well, is having a really good accountant that understands your business and your planning, your 5-year goals with your accountant on the expansion of what you want to do, where you want to go. That’s been helpful. And besides hard work is running numbers and trying to plan for the unknown, having a plan for the future.

Drew Radford:

It’s interesting you say that because you’ve already mentioned planning for the unknown in terms of floods and unfortunately you’ve suffered hive losses from those. There’s other unexpecteds that you’re facing, such as varroa mite. So how are you planning for those sorts of unexpected things, such as the possibility of that?

Richard Collins:

I guess probably research and trying to come up with a game plan for when and if it does come. I guess probably more when it does come into Victoria, is trying to have a game plan in place of what we’re going to be doing, how it’s going to be done. And adding that all into our costings now so that when it does come, the business is already set up and ready to go and we've got a fair idea of what’s going to happen.

Drew Radford:

It’s a lot of planning on top of planning, isn’t it? Because you don’t know what one season is going to be from the next. Then there’s curveballs such as floods, fires, and in this case a biosecurity risk.

Richard Collins:

Yeah, that’s probably the biggest thing, is livestock and just farming in general is trying to plan for the unplanned and always, I guess, the key is having a safety net, always having a buffer, and if you’re unsure, add an extra to your buffer. And that way, when it goes south, you’ve got a backup plan.

Drew Radford:

Well, it’s obviously worked well for you and your family because you are now third generation, but I imagine there’s been difficult decisions over the years to make sure that your business has stayed on track. Have there been, can you share some of those?

Richard Collins:

Yes and no. I've moved into the packing world instead of just wholesaling, which has probably been key for us to continue on, and that way we can choose how much we sell the honey at. And the only thing is you have to be able to sell to customers, so therefore you’re doing markets on weekends and you lose your weekends, so it’s sacrificing of spare time for more work time.

Drew Radford:

It sounds like they’re personal decisions as well because that eats into your family time.

Richard Collins:

It does, so having a supportive partner is probably key as well, is you are both in the game together and they may not have chosen the lifestyle of a beekeeper, but they’re definitely there to support you, which has been amazing for us.

Drew Radford:

Are there beekeeping networks that you are connected to that you get information and knowledge from?

Richard Collins:

Yeah, the VAA Inc. [Victorian Apiarists Association] is great resources, and then the field days that they host as well is very helpful. And then online, there’s so much online and I guess especially with varroa you’re Googling for New Zealand and other countries that have already got it and how they’re dealing with it and what they’re using. And chatting to other beekeepers to try and get tips and tricks of how to plan for the unknown, I guess for Australia, given that it’s different climate, different trees, different nectar.

Drew Radford:

That’s a really interesting insight, actually. I hadn’t thought that obviously the different trees and what they’re pollinating, flying around, could have some positive impact for you I guess in that front.

Richard Collins:

Yeah, I guess having a brood break in the bees to reduce mite numbers is something that we’ll have to work on. New Zealand, they get their varieties and then they can have a period of break, whereas Victoria can chase it to keep the flow coming in sort of thing, or keep the bees active.

Drew Radford:

Lastly, Richard, you mentioned you’re constantly looking out for tips and tricks. What would a couple of your top tips be for other beekeepers in terms of managing extreme climate events?

Richard Collins:

Always do risk assessments. I think they’re probably key of whether or not it’s worthwhile moving and taking the risk on moving them there. And trying to stay up to date with the weather is crucial. I think especially with the flooding over the past couple of years, is be mindful of if rain’s due, how much they’re anticipating. And if you’re in a low-lying creek or river area.

And a backup plan, trying to always plan for the unknown or prepare for the unknown is backup plans and trying to build a resilient beekeeping operation, I guess.

Drew Radford:

Richard, it sounds like you and your family have done a remarkable job over 3 generations for dealing with the unexpected. For now though, Richard Collins from Collins Honey, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us for this AgVic Talk podcast.

Richard Collins:

No worries. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to this episode of AgVic Talk. To access Farm Business Resilience Programs and information from Agriculture Victoria, check out the show notes from this podcast.

The Farm Business Resilience Program is jointly funded through the Australian government's Future Drought Fund and the Victorian government's Future Agriculture Skills Capacity Fund.

Contact Agriculture Victoria or your consultant before making any changes on farm.

For more AgVic talk, visit agriculture.vic.gov.au/agvictalk.

This podcast was developed by Agriculture Victoria, authorised by the Victorian Government, Melbourne.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to AgVic Talk, keeping you up to date with information from Agriculture Victoria.

Drew Radford:

The day-to-day operations on farm often seen never-ending. Be it sowing, harvesting, drafting stock, fixing fences, or even just spraying weeds. The list is endless and usually finding time to plan for big decisions is at the bottom of that list.

G'day, I'm Drew Radford, but as the saying goes, failing to plan is planning to fail. Peter Brown knows this first-hand from years of working in the corporate sector. It's that insight to planning that's now fundamental to him running his family's beef farm in East Gippsland. Peter joins me in the AgVic Talk studio to delve into this further. Thanks for your time.

Peter Brown:

Thanks, Drew. Good to be here.

Drew Radford:

Peter, the property, whereabouts is it and what sort of size are we talking?

Peter Brown:

It's 10 kilometres north-west of Bairnsdale at Mount Taylor and it's 1300 hectares roughly.

Drew Radford:

Now, usually in that part of the world, Peter, it's good cattle country, is that what you're running?

Peter Brown:

Yes, we are running Herefords and transitioning sort of to Poll Hereford, so that's been an ongoing process for the last sort of five, six years. I like the temperament of the Herefords.

Drew Radford:

And how many of those are you running?

Peter Brown:

We've got 1500 Herefords.

Drew Radford:

And what's the country like there?

Peter Brown:

It's very undulating. We get about 680 mil, well average long-term average, we don't really ever get an average year. It's fair to say where we are it's a bit rocky and has lots of components, but there's a good range of pasture and trees as well. So good shelter for the cattle. And we sort of back onto state forests, which is good.

Drew Radford:

You said there nearly 700 mils in an average year. What have recent years been like for you Peter?

Peter Brown:

We've had some pretty good years since 2020, above average, but then we'd had three years before that where we were getting under 300 mil. We sort of needed this to top up again and I think this'll be an average year in '24 based on where we are at the moment.

Drew Radford:

300 mil is a dramatic cut in that part of the world.

Peter Brown:

It was. It was tough and especially when you get it three years in a row. So, I came back to the farm in 2019. We were de-stocked down to about a 1000 at that stage and everyone was doing it tough.

Drew Radford:

So, at that particular point, did you start thinking about doing things differently or what you can do to make your property more resilient?

Peter Brown:

Look, I think at that stage it was a bit of survival mode for everyone, but I think once the rain started is when we started to have the head space to do some of that. I also was getting my feet on the ground in that first year, so learning a hell of a lot.

Drew Radford:

Is that what prompted you to do the Farm Business Resilience Program?

Peter Brown:

Definitely. It was a combination of that and also, I'd come from a corporate environment where I was used to probably a bit more structure around business planning and we didn't have anything like that, and I couldn't see how what I had learned in the past could exactly be applied for the farm environment. So that's why it sort of looked attractive to me.

Drew Radford:

Peter, what have the benefits been for you in participating in the Farm Business Resilience Program?

Peter Brown:

What it gave me is the framework that I could discuss with my parents and also the other person who I work with on the farm, and it helped us look at the business at a higher level. So, it helped pull us out of the day-to-day running, which is really what we were stuck in I think and made us look at the bigger picture. So, some of the areas that we looked at were what the enterprise was, what the people were. The other one was climate change and then there's soil and water. And when you look at the sort of strengths and weaknesses of each of those, what do you want to change or are there opportunities for change in any of those?

So, on the enterprise side of things, we realised there was a market that we weren't compliant with that we could access with just a little change in our handling requirements. So, we've done that and that's helped give us a premium at the market ever since. So, it was things like that.

And on the people side of things, because moved home and it was a family business, we hadn't really made our roles and responsibilities clear and that was causing friction in the business. So, we addressed that.

And then around soil and water, one of our weaknesses around here, we do have quite a good rainfall, but it's meant our soils are fairly acidic as well. So now we've changed our fertiliser program and over time we're hoping we can reduce the acidity.

Drew Radford:

It sounded like you were very much looking for structure and plans considering you'd come from a corporate background, but it's also I guess about planning for uncertainty, isn't it?

Peter Brown:

Definitely. Because you do look at that bigger picture, it gives you a framework for when things like drought are coming up how you want to address it earlier and you can start to think about those things beforehand rather than when you're in them quite so much.

This happened to us last winter because it went dry for last autumn, winter and early start of spring and El Nino was forecast over summer, so we sat down last winter and went through our forecast numbers and just decided that it was probably an opportunity to reduce a bit just to give us a bit of flexibility with the likelihood of things being dry. Now as it turned out we had a good summer so it wouldn't have been such a problem, but now we've had a bit of a dry spell recently and it means we are actually sitting in a pretty good place at the moment.

Drew Radford:

It sounds like you have very clear decision-making points, and you stick with those decisions and also, you're not looking back at it through the rearview mirror regretting it.

Peter Brown:

That's right, and I think to add to that I'd say is it allows everyone in the business to contribute because it gives you the ability to have those discussions rather than one person feeling like they have to make all the decisions, which in those tough uncertain times it is a big responsibility for that one person and also it doesn't necessarily allow for buy-in and you need everyone to have bought in when you're going through those tough times I think.

Drew Radford:

I reckon that's quite an important insight and point to get to because yeah, you're shouldering the responsibility, everyone's made the decision and no one person's, to blame.

Peter Brown:

That's right.

Drew Radford:

Peter, I'm wondering if you've got a couple of top tips for other farmers wanting to prepare better for future challenges

Peter Brown:

While everyone's going to have a different approach to how they tackle things. This framework, you can adapt it for whatever your system is and apply the assumptions you have around threats and opportunities. And by capturing these in the planning tool, it sort of helps you to test your thinking with other stakeholders both within the business and also potentially outside, like with your agent or your agronomist, about how you're planning on tackling things and that helps get that alignment.

The other thing I think is you've got to embrace that there aren't certainties in this environment. Climate's always going to be a massive risk. There will always be unknowable areas, so best to make the best decision you can with the information you've got available at the time and move forward and then you adjust and learn as you're going. I think that's been a big thing for us. It takes out a lot of being overwhelmed if you feel like you're moving forward, even if it's not the perfect solution in the end, it's better to be moving forward on it.

Drew Radford:

Peter Brown is moving forward and that's thanks in part to Paul Blackshaw whom he met when undertaking the Farm Business Resilience Program where Paul was leading the course. Paul's a farm management consultant with Meridian Agriculture. He knows firsthand that for farmers to be successful, they have to look at farming not just as a way of life, but first and foremost as a business.

Paul Blackshaw:

Oh, absolutely. And I think people who do view it as a business do bring a different approach to farming and generally with the farmers that I work with and come across, those people who do view it as a business tend to be more successful and profitable. Not that success is always measured in profit, but they tend to be more successful about achieving what they would like to achieve because they're often a lot clearer about what they want to achieve.

Drew Radford:

I think that's an important clarification because I would imagine that's separating sentimentality out of making business decisions.

Paul Blackshaw:

It is. And one of the things that I see a lot, I do a reasonable amount of succession planning as well, and one of the difficulties in a multi-generational business is that lack of understanding about where the actual business is going and then what are often conflicting aims or desires about what people would like to get out of life and what they'd like to get out of the business. So that's where this planning role is really extremely important when there's a couple of generations who perhaps don't necessarily agree on what the business might look like in the future.

Drew Radford:

Paul, we're going to drill down into the farm business planning in a moment, and you mentioned that you've worked in the succession planning space. You seem to be a perfect person to be having this broader business planning discussion with because from what I can work out, you've had a career that's focused on the business of running farms.

Paul Blackshaw:

It's probably over 20 years now, but I like to say that for about the last 20 years I've spent a lot of times sitting around the farm kitchen table where most of these conversations happen talking about farm finance, which is often the entree into that kitchen, but it often drifts or it should drift into farm philosophy as well because there's always a story behind any set of numbers. So, to be able to actually acknowledge that ultimate profit from a financial perspective is important, but also to start to drill down with people about what are the other things that are really important to them, which might be lifestyle, it might be something around sustainability, it might be being there for kids that are young. All those sorts of things are actually really, really important and you find that farmers or people tend to make decisions that are based around emotion or passion. It's a stronger influence on decision-making than those that they might make with the head.

Drew Radford:

You've also got a bit of dust on your boots though as well. You do a bit of share farming.

Paul Blackshaw:

Little bit. I live in a great part of the world in north-east Victoria, and we've got a little bit of land here that we do share farm with a neighbour. Luckily, we don't have to rely on it totally for our income, but certainly you live those seasons with the people that you're working with. Having said that, there's a lot of farmers that I've worked with over the years as well that rely on some degree of off-farm income and it's surprising the proportion of farms that are out there that do need some level of off-farm income. And there's absolutely no judgement around that, that's just reality for some people.

Drew Radford:

You've talked about a range of things. Distilling it down, what is business planning and why do you think it's so important for farm business?

Paul Blackshaw:

To me there's three main areas of planning. There's the strategic, tactical and operational. So, the strategic is about the bigger picture, the 5, 10, 20-year plan, where you're wanting to go, where you're headed, and that often morphs into a formal written business plan.

The tactical, which is more the yearly plan, the yearly activity, that's going to let us run the business and achieve our strategic aims.

And then the operational, which is more your sort of, day-to-day week-to-week, things that are required.

They're the sort of the three areas of planning and each of them are important and need to build on the other. So, you can't have an operational plan that is in conflict with your strategic plan, for instance. So, by doing that thinking, and I think you do it in some order, so you need to have thought about the strategic direction of your business before you worry about the others because the day-to-day things will be influenced by whatever your strategic direction is.

And this is again, one of these issues around these multi-generational businesses is that strategic planning, where we want to be in 10 years or 20 years-time, you would expect it to be different from somebody who's in their seventies or eighties, for instance, who might be looking towards retirement. You would expect their 10 and 20-year plan to be different from somebody who is perhaps 30 or 40 and coming back with passion and new ideas and wanting to take the business in a different direction. But this is one of the real challenges with strategic planning is that the actual plan for the business needs to incorporate each of those individual desires, and that can be really difficult.

Drew Radford:

There's a lot there going on in terms of making you a good business plan. What else do you think you need to consider? I imagine it's a dynamic thing as well.

Paul Blackshaw:

Absolutely, it's dynamic. I think some of the things to think about when you are doing that strategic planning is the actual role of documenting it is seen as just the tack-on at the end. But actually I find with farmers who are often not particularly good communicators, the actual process of thinking through where they would like to be in 10 or 20 years, and we've got some little tools that we might use to help them think that far out, and then actually write some stuff down and then show it to other people in the business or other people in their family, it's amazing how many surprises pop up from that little exercise.

And I've got a classic example from years ago where the conversation started with Dad who said, and this was during the millennium drought, and he said, "I actually don't really want to be farming. I really don't enjoy it." And these were conversations I was having individually, "I don't enjoy, it's pressure, it's stress, I'd rather be doing something else. I'm only doing it because my son loves it and I'm wanting to support him."

And then I individually have the conversation with the son who says, "I'm not enjoying farming, it's too much stress, pressure. I'd love to be doing something else. I'm only doing it because Dad wants to do it and I want to support him." And so, there's a great example of two people who are running a business together but had never stopped to talk to each other about what they would like to do in life, which then translates to what they'd like to do in the business.

Drew Radford:

That's quite an eye-opening example to say the least. And documenting that forces you to have those conversations, I guess.

Paul Blackshaw:

Absolutely. And farmers often are not very good verbal communicators, so being able to write something, go back, rewrite it, not have to have some pressure to come up with the right words at the right time, is really important. But once you actually do start to build this strategic plan, it's like a reference point for the business. So, when you're at a difficult crossroad, you can go back to the work that you might've done and say, "That's right, we agreed that we were going to follow this pathway."

It's almost like having a position description for a business. It gives you the guidance about where you're headed. But the other thing is don't just leave it sitting in the drawer. So, the important aspect of being able to pull it out of the drawer every year or two and say "What's changed?" Because things will change. "Is it still relevant? What do we need to update?" But it's also a great exercise to look back and say, "Actually we've really achieved a lot." Because as farmers they're busy working, sometimes you don't look back and reflect and celebrate the fact that you actually have come a long way in a couple of years.

Drew Radford:

You've talked about the future direction there. I imagine farm business planning can help farmers before, during, and after a drought. How does it work in that regard?

Paul Blackshaw:

A reasonably simple example is thinking about the actual stock that are on your farm. So, if your strategic direction is that you want to be a well-respected or acknowledged breeder of commercial or stud bulls for instance, then the decisions that you make when you're looking to do some restocking will be very different if you're just running a commercial fattening or veal herd or whatever it happens to be.

And so little things like that, once you realise what the future direction of the business is, and those drought-based decisions we call tactical planning, so it lets you make a tactical decision about de-stocking that's in support of what your strategic plan is. So, if your strategic plan is that we're just going to be trading cattle, we'll buy them cheap, fatten them and sell them expensive, hopefully, most cattle farmers have been the other way around in the last couple of years, but if that's your plan, then you don't need to keep breeding stock because that's not part of your strategic direction.

Drew Radford:

So, when it comes to developing a plan for drought and other business risks, what are some of the common mistakes that farmers make?

Paul Blackshaw:

We know these things are very difficult to plan for, but perhaps to not really have just even considered that this is going to perhaps go a little bit pear-shaped at some stage. So up until probably 18 months ago for most of the businesses that I work with, it was a pretty good four- or five-year run. Commodity prices were strong, we had good seasonal conditions, and the risk is that you forget that there's another drought coming or there might be another flood or bushfire or whatever it happens to be coming. So, you tend to get a little bit sucked into just thinking this is how it's going to be forever.

Whereas if you've thought about into the future, this is one of the risks to our business. I suggest that part of your business planning should be about thinking about risks. What are the threats or risks of our business? Then to actually have identified some of those helps you start thinking about planning for them. You mightn't actually pull the trigger on things until that day arrives, but at least you've got to clear a picture of something that you might need to do. And we actually find that the process of doing a SWOT analysis so that thinking about the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats in the business is really a powerful part of pulling out what those threats might be. And you mightn't have the exact answers to what happens, but at least you've started thinking about them.

The other part of that is that there's a risk that people don't make any decision, and we use the term decision paralysis, and that will often happen when an event is occurring around you, and you haven't thought about it, so you don't know which way to turn. At least if you've thought about an event, you've at least got some idea of what you would do. So, when you're in the heat of it, when it's drought, whether it's fire or flood, then you actually don’t have to do that much thinking because you've actually done the thinking already. So that's a way of getting around decision paralysis.

Drew Radford:

Paul, what are some of the common challenges farm businesses face when it comes to building their business resilience?

Paul Blackshaw:

One of the challenges is lack of profitability. Any business that has the financial capacity to be able to ride through an event obviously is going to be much better placed. And it's amazing how many risks will really dissipate when you've got a financially stable business. So almost thinking about the financial performance of the business is a good place to start because if you've got a business that really is financially risky, then some of the decisions you make in an event are going to be very different from if you've got a really strong financial business. So, there's some aspect to this about thinking about the financial sustainability of your business.

Obviously, people who are financially stable, sleep well at night, they're less stressed, they make better decisions, I mean, that's just human nature, but we can't automatically just pull a financially strong business out of the air either. I mean, some businesses are financially strong, and some aren't, and that will be partly due to the role of the operator, but that some of them are inherently too small in scale or those sorts of things. So that's why I was saying earlier about a number of businesses who rely on some level of off-farm income is fine because that actually gives them a little buffer too.  Every business is very different around that, but just being able to have that level of financial sustainability is really, really critical.

And probably the other bit is don't be scared to ask for help and support. And probably that goes back to my days as a Rural Financial Counsellor was to say, you're not in this alone. And often the problems seem overwhelming, so don't be scared to talk to people, whether it's a rural counsellor or whether it's an agronomist or whether it's a trusted friend or a neighbour or whatever. The idea of being able to bounce ideas off somebody usually will increase the actual value of a decision and it makes it a better decision in the long run.

Drew Radford:

A moment ago you mentioned a SWOT analysis. Lastly, what do you reckon a couple of other key tools or practices are that you'd recommend to farmers to help them develop a successful farm business plan?

Paul Blackshaw:

We use the term think outside the square or think outside the box. We use a little tool which we call the futures cone. So, what it says is, out 10 years, here's your likely future. That doesn't have to be your future. So, you can expand that futures cone to think, well, what is possible? And businesses that, particularly entrepreneurial businesses or those who are trying new techniques or technology or growing new crops or whatever, will generally have that mindset to say, well, if we keep doing the same thing, this is where we'll end up. But don't be too scared to open-up the mind to new things.

But going back to some of the tools, actually being willing to, if you like, pay somebody or be part of a group exercise where you do some work on this is also pretty valuable as well because an independent set of eyes on a business or on your plan is gold. Just somebody who tests your assumptions and says, "Well, what about this? What about that?" It doesn't have to be on a regular basis, but particularly I think when you're starting from scratch with a strategic plan, having somebody to help you is pretty important, I think.

Drew Radford:

Paul Blackshaw, Farm Business Advisor with Meridian Agriculture, thank you so much for joining us for this AgVic Talk podcast.

Paul Blackshaw:

Thanks, Drew. Pleasure to talk about it.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to this episode of AgVic Talk. To Access Farm Business Resilience Programs and information from Agriculture Victoria, check out the show notes from this podcast.

The Farm Business Resilience Program is jointly funded through the Australian Government's Future Drought Fund and the Victorian Government's Future Agriculture Skills Capacity Fund.

Contact Agriculture Victoria, or your consultant before making any changes on farm.

For more AgVic Talk podcasts, visit agriculture.vic.gov.au/agvictalk

This podcast was developed by Agriculture Victoria, authorised by the Victorian Government, Melbourne.

Speaker 1:
Welcome to AgVic Talk, keeping you up to date with information from Agriculture Victoria.

Drew Radford:
G'day. I'm Drew Radford and welcome to season nine of AgVic Talk. This season's all about planning for the dry and to better equip you to manage the impacts of drought and our changing climate. This season will provide you with resources and a range of practices and tools that are available to help you improve your farm business. Farming's rewarding, but it can also be challenging, and no 2 stories or businesses are the same. We can all learn from each other and set a plan for success. Today's episode is a sneak peek of what's to come.

Australia has some of the oldest soils in the world. For farmers that can make it difficult to capture subsoil moisture so that they can deal better with dry times. However, one way of resolving this is through subsoil amelioration, or more commonly referred to as subsoiling.

Chris Smith runs a mixed farming enterprise at Grass Flat, around about 30 kilometres west of Horsham. He's been on a quest to improve the soils on his property. So when the opportunity came up to run a subsoiling demonstration, he keenly offered up a piece of his land for the exercise. To discuss the process, and more importantly, the results, Chris joins us in the AgVic Talk studio. Hello, Chris.

Chris Smith:
Good day, Drew. Good to catch up with you.

Drew Radford:
Chris, whereabouts do you farm? And I understand your family's been in the region for well over a hundred years.

Chris Smith:
Yeah, we farm in an area called Grass Flat, and I farm here with my wife Annette. This area is 30 kms west of Horsham, just near Mount Arapiles and getting near the edge of the Little Desert.

Drew Radford:
Right. So that would be a reasonably varied country out there then, wouldn't it, Chris, if you're between those two spots?

Chris Smith:
Yeah it is, Drew. It's a pretty spot. We get a good view of Mount Arapiles and the undulating country. So you end up with sand rises and there's an interesting run of salt lakes that run probably in a northerly direction from Mount Arapiles and we've got a number of them on our place, two of them. And on the eastern side of those salt lakes, what they have, is what they call lunettes. So they're like sand rises, and then you can end up with heavy flats. So we end up with a whole range of soil types here on our place, but it adds to the interest of trying to farm.

Drew Radford:
I think you're being fairly generous there with your description. Cropping across that landscape must be...I don't know whether challenge is the right word, but it sounds like you've got at least four different soil types. What's going on there?

Chris Smith:
Yeah, so within paddocks they do pick up different soil types. You can have limestone ridges running across your paddocks to heavy flats to sand rises, to really gutless sand. We've tried to patch out different areas at times to lift the productivity of those poorer areas. Maybe using a bit of sulphate of ammonia, gypsum and that sort of thing. But you end up with quite a colourful yield map at the end of the harvest because you can see just your different soil types dropping in and out, depending on the season.

Drew Radford:
Chris, that sounds like a fairly top-down approach for want of a better description. I understand though you've started to have a look at a slightly different approach, subsoil amelioration or otherwise known as subsoiling. For those that don't know what that is, can you describe it?

Chris Smith:
Well, subsoiling, people are probably very familiar with deep ripping and even clay delving. Deep ripping can be used to bring clay up onto your sand rises, which is not that new. People have been doing it for a long time, but subsoiling or subsoil amelioration is dropping some sort of product to improve the soil fertility, health, biological activity in the soil behind the tyne as you rip. So you're dropping it at depth so at the same time you're breaking up, maybe a compaction layer, you could be bringing clay to the top of the profile, depending what your approach is, or you could just be getting a mix of that clay and the topsoil and dropping some sort of product behind the tyne.

Drew Radford:
So it sounds like there's a bit going on there. You're not just deep ripping, you're adding something to essentially the rip, the trench, that you've dug. What's that achieve?

Chris Smith:
The idea behind subsoiling is to improve the health of the soil in a number of ways. One way is to aerate your soil. You're breaking up a compaction layer that's preventing air getting in, and without air there's not much biological activity in your soil and the roots won't be penetrating, and the water doesn't get in. So there's that side of things, and then by dropping a product in behind it, which is high in organic matter, then you're going to add all those goodies into your soil that the microbes and the bugs and the earthworms will hopefully add to the overall health of your soil.

Drew Radford:
Let's start talking about what's involved, and I understand, you offered to do a subsoiling demonstration on your property. What did you do?

Chris Smith:
It was in conjunction with Agriculture Victoria and Birchip Cropping Group and they provided the hardware, the equipment to do the job. So we allocated an area in a paddock that was going to a cereal in that rotation, and we picked a transect across the paddock that picked up a sand rise and then a gilgai heavy flat and then up onto a problem area where we get water logging. So we had all three soil types, all three areas in the one transect, which ran for about 400 metres, 350 metres, and there was a number of subsoiling products that we were dropping down the tube or just on top of the soil or just left the control. That was just to assess what is best for the soil types that we've got here and the conditions.

Drew Radford:
There's a bit going on there in terms of you're doing different soil types and you're also doing different additives for want of a better description. Did the results vary?

Chris Smith:
Yes. It was quite interesting, really. We had a pretty good winter here, so the product that we had access to was some compost pig manure, and then we had our own compost, which I made myself, made out of duck manure and straw and a few other goodies, and that was what we called our ‘home brew’, and then we had gypsum as well.

So there was a whole series of combinations of mixing, say, putting the pig manure, compost at depth, and then my home brew at depth, and then mixing gypsum with those products and also putting them at depth and then a few controls and then just dropping the product on the top. And then we went about speed tilling that in. So we let that run through the season. We just pretty much sowed it as part of our normal rotation and that's pretty much all I did.

I just let the trial run its course. And so as the time went by in the demonstration trial that we were running, it was plain to see that where the product was drilled in, there was a yield response and where the control, the crop wasn't as good. Between the control and the compost at depth, that ranged from about 0.6 of a tonne per hectare benefit of the pig manure, which was close to 1.3 or four tonnes higher. So there was some interesting results there, and we got to dig a soil pit. And you could see this product you dropped in at depth, it was like a big sausage ripped in behind the tyne, and it was really fascinating to see actual worms in those subsoiling lines where we dropped the compost, whereas I didn't find any other worms anywhere, but they were in the subsoiling product, which was good.

Drew Radford:
Those yield results, you'd be pretty happy with that, wouldn't you?

Chris Smith:
Yeah, it was good to see that you can get a response and you get some benefit from going to the trouble of the expense, I suppose. And it'll be interesting to see how the paddock performs this year and just how it responds. We drop back to a legume this year, a pea, so it'll be interesting just to see how that establishes and whether there's improved nodulation on those areas where we did deep rip the compost in.

Drew Radford:
Chris, you raised the word there, expense. Running a tyne through a paddock and then providing the home brew or the pig manure in behind it is a bit involved?

Chris Smith:
Yes, there is, Drew and they were putting the pig manure at 20 tonnes per hectare, which you need a fair bit. And the home brew went in at about 12 tonne and the equipment was pretty substantial, unique sort of equipment. I guess people have to weigh up what are their objectives. If you are going to deep rip it or do clay delving, is there an opportunity to drop something down the tube if you're going into the paddock anyway, so those sorts of things you have to weigh up.

Drew Radford:
Well, in terms of weighing it up, what have you taken away from it for your own property?

Chris Smith:
I'm very interested in trying to improve our soils. I'm very keen to look at doing subsoiling, particularly on poorer performing areas of our paddocks on the sand rises and just targeting those and trying to lift the overall soil health and performance and hopefully yield.

Drew Radford:
They're crucial things. Do you think it'll put you in better stead for dry seasons as well, trapping subsoil moisture?

Chris Smith:
Well, yeah, I'd hope to hold on to the moisture. If you're lifting the organic matter, in particularly those sand rises, hopefully the soil can hold on to some of the moisture more readily, rather than just draining straight through or running off, because some of our sands are non-wetting, which can be a little frustrating when it comes to germination, and trapping moisture as well as not losing nutrients through the profile as well. If we can lift the soil productivity and that can hang on to the nitrogen and the different minerals that we need to grow a healthy crop, then we're going to have a win-win, I believe.

Drew Radford:
Chris, what have you taken away from it in terms of challenges and lessons learned? I understand you're a bit surprised about the quantities involved, but I can't imagine it's a quick process running a ripper through even to start with.

Chris Smith:
It is time-consuming, and I suppose that's something to consider, but for me it was a real eye-opener to see just how the soil responds and just seeing at depth what problems that we have to deal with in this area of grassland and what benefits could be achieved using deep ripping and dropping ameliorate in. So I'm interested to pursue it further and target those areas where I believe that we could lift our soil health.

Drew Radford:
Lastly, Chris, for other farmers listening to this, have you got a couple of takeaway tips that you'd suggest to them to consider if they're thinking about subsoiling?

Chris Smith:
Yeah, I'd probably evaluate what your objectives are, like what are you trying to achieve by subsoiling and what products are readily available and at what expense and availability of the equipment, and if you are going to clay delve anyway, maybe there's an opportunity to value add that procedure by incorporating some sort of ameliorant or subsoil product into the soil profile while you're doing that process. I think that you have to evaluate each of the steps. Can you do target areas when it's so expensive and try to lift the performance of those areas and leave the better performing areas just to conventional farming or maybe using other additives to improve soil health without actually going in and ripping the soil. But I guess you have to evaluate what the problems are, whether you have a drainage issue, water penetration, compaction. So I guess you have to weigh up your limitations of your soil and saying what it's going to deliver for me and the cost associated with that.

Drew Radford:
Well, Chris, it sounds like you've had a fascinating ringside seat, literally, for this demonstration that you've run on your property and gained some huge insights about potential ways of improving your soil, because that sounds very central to your future farming. I'll be fascinated to see where you get to with this over the years. For now though, Chris Smith, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us for this AgVic Talk podcast.

Chris Smith:
Thank you, Drew.

Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening to this episode of AgVic Talk. To access Farm Business Resilience Programs and information from Agriculture Victoria, check out the show notes from this podcast. The Farm Business Resilience Program is jointly funded through the Australian Government's Future Drought Fund and the Victorian Government's Future Agriculture Skills Capacity Fund.

Contact Agriculture Victoria, or your consultant before making any changes on farm. For more AgVic Talk podcasts, visit agriculture.vic.gov.au/agvictalk. This podcast was developed by Agriculture Victoria, authorised by the Victorian Government, Melbourne.

Further information

Fact sheet: Decision support for grain growers

Case study: A first experience of subsoil amelioration on Chris Smith’s farm in western Victoria

Video: Subsoil amelioration